CJ Avilla

Getting hired as a developer

Show Notes


  • Sourcing where you want to apply 
    • Make a list of the tools/apps/companies you like to use
    • Outbound (Make a top 10 list)
    • Inbound (review inbound recruiter outreach from the past 3 months or more)
    • Networking (who do you know, try to do some coffee chats to see if they like their company and team)
    • Cold outreach is tough (numbers game)
    • Timing - interviewing such that offers come in around the same time
  • Resume & cover letter & LinkedIn & Social 
    • Have these reviewed by your peers and iterate on feedback
    • Make sure you communicate the things you’ve done that add value, ideally how much value you’ve added. Situation Behavior Impact (SBI) is a good framework for bullets
    • Omit anything unrelated to the job you’re going for (hot take?)
    • Clean up social
  • Preparing for Interviews 
  • Communities 
  • Resources 
Full Transcripts

Colin: Welcome to Build and Learn. My name is Colin.

CJ: And I'm cj and today we're talking about getting hired.

Colin: That's a pretty important topic these days with a little bit of a twist in the economy that we're seeing. Unfortunately a lot of people getting laid off or maybe even looking for their first engineering role in the industry. So we figured we'd break it down this week.

CJ: Yeah, lots of folks are I've seen tons of layoffs, but I've also saw, like the jobs report was showing that we're at pretty good unemployment rates, at least in the United States. But there was this like great resignation and also there's this like meme about our generation not staying in jobs for super long

Colin: Yeah. Or quiet, quitting.

CJ: Yeah, quiet, quitting, all of these different things. But yeah, at the end of the day, if you want a new job that can make you happier or make you more fulfilled or make you you know, more financially stable, there's lots of tips and tricks that I guess that we've figured out maybe over the last couple decades. And I'm excited to learn about your story and your process for getting hired.

Colin: Awesome. Yeah. Before we do that, you just got off of vacation. How'd it go?

CJ: Oh my gosh, this was the longest vacation I've taken in a long time. It was almost three weeks and we did that episode about burnout and taking time off and PTO and all this. And so I was like, okay I really have to follow

Colin: Walk the walk.

CJ: Yeah, lock the lock and do follow our suggestions. And so I deleted Slack and I logged out Gmail and I logged out of the work Twitter accounts and so I was getting like zero notifications about work for three weeks or so. And gosh, It was glorious.

Colin: I was wondering because I think you must, do you schedule some of your content releases and stuff? Because I was like, CJ's this is not work stuff, but I think it was your personal YouTube channel that was like dropping shorts and stuff

CJ: Yeah.

Colin: I was like, is CJ actually working or is he taking time off right now?

CJ: I had recorded a giant series over the course of a week, and then I was dripping that content out over. Several months, and I do have shorts that are in the bag through December, so we're recording this in October, and every Friday through December, you'll see. You should see a short pop up, but

Colin: See, and I mean, even this podcast, we were just talking about how we, so the way we record is we try to record every week. And then we release every other week, which means that we have a very long back list of episodes that we can put out and it allows us to take time off, right? Like we didn't record for three weeks and the show still went on and it still got released. And you know, we've got some travel and some conferences coming up and it's very nice. Like I've been doing podcasts where it feels like you're under the gun to record. And you're like, oh my God, we gotta get an episode out. We gotta get the recording. And it's just nice to have that backlog of episodes. It does make for some timey, yme, like when we mention certain dates or conferences we're going to, the episodes don't always come out before those events, but you know, it's an archival of our history. It works.

CJ: Exactly. Yeah. And I think like it's to the benefit of everybody, right? Like it's it makes it so that we don't burn out. Because we're going at a sustainable pace. And it also benefits you know, the listener because you can actually like, continue listening to a podcast because we didn't record five episodes and then, you know, fizzle out or whatever. So hopefully it's a win-win all around

Colin: Yeah, I just found a new podcast that I like binged. And then of course, like the last episode I listened to was like, this is gonna be our last episode. And I was like, oh no, I just found this and it was still binge worthy. And I'll try to link to it cuz we're gonna talk about a little bit of it today, but pod fading is real. It happens to content creators, definitely podcasts. I think people think it's just super easy to jump in and do this, but it's like working out or doing anything else. It's like consistency is key and We talk about atomic habits and James Clear a lot, but there's the whole idea of you fall to the level of your systems and we have a system where we can have a bad day and the system is always there. We can have a bad week and the system's always there. I think we can take some of that system and build a system out for getting hired and thinking about how you putting the reps towards getting a job, whether it's, your first job in the industry or maybe you're looking to change roles whether it's the same ladder or a different one, if you wanna become a manager or a product person. We're gonna dig into that today.

CJ: As part of the context for this episode and the framing for it, We're mostly gonna focus on getting jobs as web developers, but some of these concepts will be applicable no matter, you know what job or role you're looking for.

Colin: And I would say we're also, we were gonna do an episode on hiring, getting hired, and engineering levels. We decided to turn this into three different episodes, so we're gonna focus on getting hired today. Then we'll flip the table because we've both done hiring as well and do the hiring side. and then we'll jump into engineering levels. I think freelancers and smaller agency type developers are probably not as familiar with engineering levels. But we can dig into that and expectations. And you know, why I think levels are a really good thing. I think some people don't really like them. But we'll have a whole episode where we can talk about the pros and cons of trying to put people in a little box.

CJ: When you were changing jobs just recently to get hired at Orbit what was your process?

Colin: I guess some background, I've mostly worked in either my own companies or freelance contract to hire type things. And so I, at the time was working at another startup that was winding down. Wasn't really looking. So I think that this list that we're gonna talk about today is useful if I, you know, found myself without a job through a layoff or a riff or something like that. And I needed to like bounce back quickly and it's like, where do I start? But for me, usually what I do is I compile a list of. Tools, apps, companies that I like, love to use every day. In part because almost everything I use has been built by some developers, right? And so I'm like, if I like using this thing one, I'm gonna have, I think I'm gonna be able to speak well to it in an interview because I use it and, I don't know that you get fanboy points, but knowing it in and out is only going to help in interviews and you can get a sense of the culture behind the team that builds. You can see how their support works. Like you, it's very easy to almost interview them just by using their tool. And so that's kind of where I start. With the case of Orbit, I was not a user of Orbit yet. But I had friends who went to go work there and, you know, at the time, orbit was hiring developers and it was kinda like I, I know for a fact like we would have sourcing events in orbit where we would. Go through our own social networks to look for people who were looking for jobs. mining our own network to find people. And shout out to Erin for being the one who brought me into, literally into orbit.

CJ: Bringing you into orbit. Yeah. Before I decided to join Stripe, I was working at a startup. I was pretty burnt out. and Stripe reached out. And that kicked off a whole job search process where I was like, okay, if I'm going to consider changing jobs, obviously Stripe is has it been on my top 10 list for years and years? But if I'm gonna make the, a shift away from this other job, then I want to try and. Increase my optionality as much as possible. And so I'm gonna look at and interview at and try to get offers at as many companies as possible at the same time, so that I can have the most optionality basically.

Colin: But you weren't looking until that happened, right? You had an inbound request and then you're like, I wasn't looking, but now I'm thinking about looking.

CJ: Yeah. Yeah. It was like one, you know, one you have an off day and someone says something like to you on Slack and you're like, you know what? Yeah, sure. I'll respond to

Colin: Let's see what else is out there.

CJ: Yeah. So

Colin: like you have a list though, that you've kept in terms of a top 10 list of companies that you would wanna work for.

CJ: Yeah, and very similar to you, it's tools and apps and companies that I've used or liked to use. And for me, I really like this, the niche space of like developer tools and API products. And so the list isn't like super, super long, but also like on top of that, I. I don't know. There's, you know, Netflix is always one, one of the list and Dropbox and there's a bunch of things that I use every single day where I'm like, okay it would be pretty cool to work at this place, or it seems like it'd be cool to work at this

Colin: I have some friends and we joke about it cuz some of them have been at almost all the fang companies and we joke about them being like the infinity stones on like the Infinity gauntlet. It's okay, you've got Netflix, it's the red one, you've got Facebook, that's the blue one. and they're just kind collecting all of them and they've also spent like a good deal of time at each of those companies before they moved over. But it is good to have a list of, I would say, like what companies you'd wanna work for. Because when you're looking, there's gonna be no shortage of jobs out there. So really knowing like what you're gonna enjoy, you know what's the company stage, how many people are on the team. These are things that you may. To know just by using their tools. So you might have to do a little bit of research. You might get inbounds like you did through LinkedIn. Sometimes it's a recruiter, sometimes it's directly from a hiring person. You might be in a Slack group or a Discord group with other industry folks conferences. We've talked about conferences in the past. Another great way to get hired. There's usually like a, who's hiring and who's looking to be hired board at a conference so you can put your stuff up on. that's a little bit of the networking aspect of it. Sure. Going to a conference might cost you something, but you could probably find some scholarships or things to go to, like a rails conf and then just get into where the people are. Yeah.

CJ: Yeah, exactly. And I think the whole, I mean, so in earlier when you said that Erin brought you into orbit, right? That was like you using your network and like leveraging your network into a job. And so I think this is actually very common. One of my students. Worked at my vr and that's how I got connected to my vr. And that was a job. My wife just started a new job and when she was looking for these support roles, I was like, oh, let me connect you with some other people who I know who do these support things. And so I was like, oh, it would be great if you had like a call with Lindsay our, you know, our shared friend. From here in Reno and I was like, oh, if you, what if you like met up with Lindsay just to ask about like how tips and tricks for how to get a job. And Lindsay knew about a Slack group and so then she joined like this Slack group and then like through the Slack group there's, yeah, there's all of these different opportunities that come up. And so it really, like networking is a super power. And I think you know, in bus, in business school and stuff, they're like, oh, you know, networking is so valuable, this and that. But really at the end of the day, if you know people. and they work at companies and they have a positive image of you in their head, and they're willing to have a coffee chat with you to just tell you about what it's like to work at that company, but then also maybe refer you in. Then that's a huge leg up.

Colin: Yeah, we actually, we have a cool Slack group that we'll mention at the end. So if you stick around for the end of the episode, we'll be sure to give you some details on places. Cuz when you talk about it's who, you know, it sounds a little bit like nepotism and things like that, but it's more Because we're in the same community, I'm going to give a little bit more weight. Right. It might be a community or like the support Slack that you're talking about, where it's like people who gravitate towards being in the support community are probably also doing a bunch of extracurriculars to level up their skills and therefore we wanna hire outta that Slack community because they're just higher quality leads and candidates and things like that. If you don't have an existing network, you don't have to have gone to school with these people or, you know, all these things that you hear about oh, we've been, you know, like you hear a lot of the startups, you're like, we all went to the Stanford together, or whatever that. Does happen, but it's not the norm anymore. Like we talked about traditional and non-traditional backgrounds, that's not necessarily the case, like the Slack that we'll share later. You don't have to necessarily know the person super well, but they still know that by you being a part of this community that again, you're going to be like the one of the top, you know, candidates for them if you're even looking. So for me, I was trying to decide do I want to go get a job again or go back down the freelance rabbit hole or, you know, do something like fractional, you know, tech engineer, something like that. It was timing and Erin was, you know, insistent and it turned into interviews

CJ: Yeah, totally. I think the other thing is that if you don't have a network and you don't have a list of companies and you don't have these inbound requests, then you can do cold, you can do cold outreach. And what I mean by cold outreach is just like finding jobs to apply to. And we've got a whole bunch of, job boards and communities that will mention a little bit later. But basically just finding those jobs that. Posted online, the job description is online and usually there's some way to apply through whatever, it's like a level, I can't remember the like levels.co thing? Yeah. Or like green, yeah. Greenhouse and all these different like tools. I know LinkedIn has a quick apply. Indeed has quick apply like all these different places, right? But what I have found is that if. Are resorting to cold outreach, then it becomes a numbers game where like you just have to apply to like just a ridiculous amount of places. That is one way that you can get your foot in the door is just like spray and pray. Apply to a hundred places and get your, get an entry level job. Get something started where you can start to build a. Build relationships, build partnerships with other companies that you're integrating with or working with, and that will be the start of your network that you can then use to build into like your next role.

Colin: And you'll see this a lot too as you've been in the industry longer. Like we all, we'll use the orbit analogy here, like we literally will be in each other's orbits, whether we're working at the same company or not. We may end up at the same company like you and I. Were like never working together for a long time, and then we interacted together on a bootcamp and there's like all these interactions that then ended up turning into us working on the same project together. And then now, you know, we'd split off and you went to Stripe. I went to Orbit, and then who knows? You know, what's next? There's a phrase in startups and raising money where when you're going out to like VCs if you want advice, ask for money and if you want money, ask for advice. This can apply as well to jobs. Like we were mentioning about coffee chats and things like that. It's like you can just reach out to a company and ask them, do you just wanna have an informational or something like that? And it turns out they might be looking for the kind of person. That you're looking to get hired on as and you know, asking for advice, going in without these stakes of you don't even need to think about algorithms and practice interviews and stuff like that. You just asking for advice and then they might be in a place where they're looking for a person like you. If you go in looking for a job, they're gonna probably give you advice, you know, the other way around. Which is also good, like you're gonna get information that you can use in your job search either.

CJ: So when, one of the things we talked about was inbound, where like a recruiter reaches out to you, and I think a lot of your inbound depends on sort of maybe the search engine optimization of your social profile, your LinkedIn, even like your GitHub profile, your web, like your personal website where, you know recruiters are gonna have some search query thing where they're saying I'm looking for a web developers that are based in, The United States, but not San Francisco and not New York,

Colin: Which is really interesting cuz remote work has changed so much that it's interesting try to find people. Cause I've been getting inbound from people who are in Tahoe and Reno and it's like, I don't know that I really, I mean, it doesn't, to me it's not a benefit that they're here. Like Cool. Great to know that you exist. And the one that I got that was a stranger one was, that was, The name of the founder was in the subject line. It was like a founder name company. And I was like, I have never heard of this person before, so why would I ? And it's just okay, cool. And it turned out they were like a famous founder from the early Silicon Valley days. I was like, I. I don't know that tactic's gonna work these days if they aren't like, the head of either Stripe or Dropbox or something that we've actually heard of today.

CJ: I mean on both ends of this, right? Whether you are trying to get hired or you're trying to hire somebody, it is a giant exercise in sales and marketing. And so you'll see the recruiter emails that they're sending you are all just okay, how can I ab test this copy and this subject and, you know, as

Colin: I literally wanted to be like, who the hell is this person as my response, but I just didn't respond at all.

CJ: Yeah. going back to like your LinkedIn, your social, your website, your whatever. Like I would say it is important to have these reviewed by folks. Just, you know, people are gonna be critical and they're gonna nitpick and you're, you wanna make sure that you're putting your best foot forward. And so having someone review it and help you with, you know, spelling mistakes and grammar and, you know, just cleaning up and making sure that it's positioned well so that you end up with the role that you want is important.

Colin: What's like when you go to apply for a job? I think it's an unfortunate reality that we still have to do this, but what are the two primary things that you have to submit when you apply today?

CJ: Yeah, I mean, I think it's the resume and the cover letter, right? Like cover

Colin: bit harder to do spray and pray when a cover letter is involved because you gotta craft it.

CJ: Going back to the top 10. I actually made separate resumes and separate, like cover letters, like everything was customized and tailored per company, and it's based on the job description. So I'll look at the job description, pull out the keywords from the job description and use like whatever translation that was to whatever I had on the resume already to make sure that it aligned as perfectly as possible to the job description. And yeah, that, that was, you know, high conversion.

Colin: For a lot of these companies that have a lot of applicants, unfortunately, they can't read all of the resumes, what they will use is some of these applicant tracking systems to identify keywords, pull out keywords. There's some people who I've seen have made resumes and they're like graphic designers, and they'll include all the logos of all the apps that they know how to use, but they don't have the word in it, right? It's like you want, if you want Photoshop and Illustrator to pop up, you better write those out as words, right? And still you can have a beautiful design, but a lot of these ATS systems will pull out all the text and throw away the pdf. And you can read it later if you want, but it's just the text. So all of the pretty stuff is gonna go away. And then they can say, give me everyone who's mentioned go lang and Photoshop as their two things that they love. And then now you take like thousands of applicants down to a couple hundred, and then they're gonna maybe review those by hand and then reach out. So like you said, like it's a little bit of SEO in your resume, tuning it to the job description. Maybe if you're applying to Netflix and you have experience, at your local, pet store, probably not a relevant information to put on that resume, right? So make it relevant if there's holes in your job history that just make sure that things you can explain yeah, you know, I worked at Pet store while I was learning to code and I just didn't feel like I should put that on this resume type of thing.

CJ: Yep.

Colin: But definitely put down things like your boot camps or your trainings, projects that you've built. Those kinds of things are super important.

CJ: Yep. Totally. Yeah. I would say if you're very early and you don't have. Job experience as a software developer, instead of putting your job experience working at wherever you worked before, Starbucks or whatever, I would put each of the projects that you've built on your own and anything that was interesting about those projects. Oh, I solved an n plus one query here, or, I did this interesting caching thing over here, or I deployed it to this really fancy place. So yeah, highlight, highlight the work that you've, in those side projects as if it was a job. Like I think that's a good way to highlight your skills.

Colin: So you also put here cleanup social. You wanna explain that a

CJ: Yeah. This maybe pertains a little bit more to my specific role as a developer advocate, and that is that like your social profile is representative of like how you will be presenting content related to the brand. In the future. And so if you have a bunch of stuff on there that has, profanity or if you have a bunch of like political hot takes or if you have a bunch of, stuff that is not related to, a professional atmosphere. At Stripe we have this thing called the front page test, and that is like whether or not. You would be comfortable with something being published on the front page of the Wall Street Journal or whatever, the New York Times. Yeah. And so if you look at your social media and you have I don't know, things that you just wouldn't be proud of, then you can go back and delete all of those.

Colin: I mean I treat even text messages and things like the front page test of you know, especially we've been seeing. Very famous people's text messages and threads being leaked lately, and it's like a little cringy, thankfully. Nothing too bad, right? Just some cringe, which I'm sure we all have in our text threads and stuff, but that's a good thing to think about. I think there's, this is interesting when a lot of people right now, will put in their profile my views are not, expressed by my employer and things like that. But you're right in a job like yours where your Twitter kind of is your work and you also. You know, non-work things there, but it's very not curated. Like you're still bringing yourself to work and showing up and things like that. And maybe there's some social networks that aren't public facing that are, for friends and family and stuff like that. But definitely something to consider. I would think of this as also just looking into the company's culture too, is like look at their social presence how they show up in social. A lot of companies have this job page. That's trying to sell you on all the perks and the culture and all that kind of stuff. And again, maybe even going and looking at some of the employees socials to go see, just like how they show up at work and online

CJ: Totally. Yeah. I would say if you don't want to clean up. Or if you don't wanna tie it at all to work, then don't put it on your resume.

Colin: Yeah, or maybe make it private too so you don't necessarily have to hide, but don't point it out as the first link on your resume. So let's just assume we get through the applicant tracking system and we get first interview. What are we, what are you gonna do here? Now as you start to think about preparing for, I.

CJ: So I always assume that every. Phone screen is going to have a technical coding component to it. There's always gonna be a chance that you're gonna share a screen and someone is gonna throw an algorithm question at you and you'll have to code live. And so I always prepare, even if it's just for the phone screen, I always try to prepare the same way, and that is to be ready to write some code live in front of somebody, whether that's on a whiteboard. Which is not fun. And I think less of that is happening now that we're all remote . But yeah. The, yeah, I think prep, prepping for the Google interview was really intense because I know that they're really adamant about making sure that you have error handling and, you know testing and like all this stuff, like even in your whiteboard code, which was like super, super intimidating. Anyways, so yeah, like I would say trying to go through a bunch of algorithms, practice and you know, practicing interviews with friends. So just jump on a call and have your friends just throw a couple softballs at you just so you can sort of loosen up and get comfortable with talking about code in front of other people. In my role right now, I do a ton of live streaming and a ton of just like recording with my editor open, and so I'm pretty comfortable talking as I'm writing code, but if your day to day job is writing code, With your mouth shut and your brain going, and you're not actually saying these words out loud, then it can be uncomfortable to say oh, you know, right here I'm gonna use the I don't know, facade pattern to do blah, blah, blah. So it can be, yeah, it can be tricky to just whip those words out. Even though you kind know them in your brain.

Colin: Yeah, and we'll talk more about what the hiring person is looking for when you're doing those things in the next episode. But um, you know, there's things like, you're talking about live, live coding We've done in at Orbit a project that. It's more realistically like what the work looks like, which is we're giving you like five different potential features to implement and we gave you. A new Rails app that already has a bunch of stuff and has a broken test so that we can see how you think. But we'll talk about that in the next episode. A little bit more about what are they, what are we looking for? Are we looking for you to drop like, you know, pattern names and be the most brilliant person or are we just looking to see how you think and all of that? I like to research the company. We mentioned this already, but like you don't wanna really be on an interview and not know what they do or what the job description is, right? So I don't think this is gonna be the case as much with web development jobs, but if you do there are some services that will mass supply you to a lot of things. So if you get an I. Make sure you spend a little bit of time going reading, finding out, again, stage where they at, what do they make, what languages, what stacks do they use? Are they hiring for you to know the stack already or are they open to you moving sideways into from Python to Ruby or whatever it might be.

CJ: Yeah. And I think also some companies will publish like a culture deck or at least like some principles or values or these kinds of things. And those can be useful going in. And I've even seen that be a pop quiz question oh, hey, you said you looked at our website. What can you name like two of our 10 values or whatever probably, I don't know, hard work and

Colin: I'll just list the Burning Man principles.

CJ: Yeah. The burning Yeah.

Colin: Awesome. So I think the thing that most people dread in interviews is you might have a phone screen, you then might have a project, but there's this idea of algorithm grinding and I think this is like, it depends on the jobs and depends on the companies, but things like hacker rank and leet code, like in some cases when you do have a job that. Thousands of applicants. Just your hacker rank or your leet code score is gonna be what's used to separate you from the bottom half so that they don't have to go through all of those. And so have you had to do any of these in your searching?

CJ: Yes. And. I have seen where some companies will have partnered with leet code and so as instead of a phone screen, they'll be like, do these three leak code problems. And if you don't score high enough, then you just don't make it to the next level. In the past I've done like just a ton of these, but for fun I just think they're really fun to go through. The other thing that I would say is if you have the opportunity to write, Even just like the most basic automated tests even if your test is just run the function call and then assert based on the output of some input, then you're automatically gonna like win points. And something that I like to do before going into an interview is making sure that I have memorized the rspec, like shortcuts so that I can run an rspec test in the same file so that I can just say okay, I want my runner. And then at the bottom I'm just gonna say rspec.describe do, and then write my automated tests so that I can just run them immediately. That way when you're writing your solutions to your algorithm, then you have immediate feedback and you can move much faster.

Colin: And then it also shows the hiring manager that you write tests first, whether you do or not,

CJ: Yep. Exactly. Exactly.

Colin: They're like, Ooh, I don't actually do this usually, but it's gonna help here. It's oh, this is where tests are useful. So yeah, we mentioned hacker rank. We mentioned leet code. I really like one called exercism. It's very mentor driven, so you can go through different paths for each language. And then you can actually sign up to be a mentor or have your code mentored essentially reviewed by someone and they'll give you tips and things. So there's definitely a grind and you're gonna go through the easy ones, the moderate ones, the harder ones. It's just good to get exposed to a bunch of different things. It just makes you a better programmer. I was trying to do a little experiment in our, we have a local developer meetup, slack, and I was trying to post like daily code problems there and I just forgot some days and then I fell off. Kind of like pod faded there.

CJ: Yep.

Colin: it was fun to do just because it's like I don't, most of our jobs are not actually generating like an algorithm or inverting a Petri and stuff like this. Right. But knowing how to do it, cuz it's probably gonna be on an interview. Is important. So just a fact of the job. And you have a mention here of cracking the coding interview book which is cracking the coding interview.com from Gail McDowell. I have not read it, but have you.

CJ: This is a good one that will again, go through a bunch of algorithms and data structures, but also we'll talk through Amazon is gonna look for this and Google's gonna look for that. And you know Facebook might look for this. And so it's, yeah, it's one of those books that I'll read probably every time I'm going through the hiring process just to stay fresh. Yeah. Another great resource is this interview cake interview cake.com. This one is a paid resource, but I, yeah, I've paid for it twice now because every time I go through the hiring process, they'll give you like, here's the interview question, and then you can sort of reveal. Hints or sort of like parts of the answer as you're going. So if you're like not sure how to proceed with some dynamic programming exercise or something, then it'll be like, oh, try this or try that. Or, what about this? And so in, in a real interview, as you, if you get stuck or if you have questions, it's really important to like also be comfortable just asking your interviewer for tips. And so that I think feels a little bit more realistic towards what a real interview is gonna be like.

Colin: What I like about that too is if you're not sure how to think out loud, Those hints almost help you think about how to approach the problem. And if you get good at deconstructing a problem and then doing that live on an interview, again, we'll talk about it more, but like that proves to me that how you think and how you approach the problem, which usually ends up being more important than having the right solution. It's like we know you're gonna get there if you had enough time, but I'm really curious how you think. So yeah, those are resources. I think I might even just join that interview cake one cuz I was reading through it and like some of the algorithms and like just examples are like things I've been trying to brush up on in general. And it just helps to do that. I think once you get through that, you're gonna have probably some other interviews around like meeting with potentially the team that you're gonna be on, and then potentially their manager. And then like usually the last interview is someone that's like in people ops or depending on how big the company is, the ceo, cto, whoever that might be. And they're like just the last thumbs. You've gotten through the, are you a serial killer? Questions with the phone screen and gotten through your algorithms and now it's really just making sure there's a culture fit and you know, having the final sign off.

CJ: Okay, so some places will have really interesting interview. Cycles too. As part of the job that I'm in now, we actually ask people to come in and do a presentation because a lot of our job is presenting content. And so we ask them to come and teach us about something that they're familiar with. And so that maybe that means you have to like, prepare a deck or you have to prepare like a live coding thing that you're gonna show off. I've also seen interviews for if you're applying for like a sales. Or a solution architect or like a sales engineer or even like a partner engineer, these kinds of roles might, you might end up in a in a role playing scenario where okay, I'm gonna pretend that I'm the client and you are the partner engineer and I'm coming with like a bunch of issues and now we're gonna present those issues and you have to solve them for me. I also ha as part of joining this company, there was a writing exercise and it was like a let's it's, it was just like a persuasive writing exercise, so that's like another potential thing that you might see. So lots of different kinds of interviews. I think the ones that people get stuck on are most hung up on are the live coding ones, though. And so I would say, yeah, the resources we've added here should be pretty solid. Again. Yeah. Going back to these communities too, we've got a bunch of communities that you can join. I think this is like sort of a hack to getting a job is like knowing where to hang out , where other people are hiring. So Colin and I both work remotely and so I think a lot of these are leaning a little bit more remote. But yeah there's a ton here. So what, actually, I don't know what this top one is. Rand's Leadership Slack. What's yeah,

Colin: Yeah, so the Rand's leadership Slack, I don't remember his background, but he wrote a book called Managing Humans the Art of Leadership and the Software Developer's Career Handbook. This slack is amazing no matter what stage you're at, because there are Slack channels for. Every level, there's like director level Slack channels. There's entry level slack channels, there's remote jobs channel, there's specific region jobs channel. I've been hanging out in a lot of the staff engineering ones just because I'm heading that way on my ladder and just being around the community of people and seeing what things people are posting. But what's nice is that like the quality. of job posts of opportunities or even an opportunity, again, like I said, like just offering advice to people. They might then reach out later when they're looking for somebody to hire. And so it's one that, there's so many channels I would not advise joining. All of them like I'm in like a running channel and then a bunch of staff ones, I'm in a Dungeons and Dragons channel. There's literally, it's just lots of very leadership minded people in there. Highly recommend there's a, we'll put a link in the show notes with how to get invited to that. And then there's a bunch of reverse job boards where instead of a job. Being posted, you're being posted and or being sent out to a list of companies, that are paying to have access to that. Rails. devs.com is one that I'm blanking on his name right now, but he's very involved in the rails world.

CJ: Joe Masilotti?

Colin: is. Yeah, Joe. And so I think a lot of rail devs specifically, so it's like a very niche job board where it's rails specific, but there are probably things like data scientist ones and you know, whatever insert job that you're looking for there.

CJ: Totally. Yeah. And then we've got remote. Okay. This one is like a bigger grab bag of different kinds of roles that are all remote roles. This was a place where we found a lot of potential. openings for Nicole when she was looking for a remote job. So that is, is really cool. And I think this might be based on the same folks as the nomad list, which is okay, you can work and live anywhere you want in the world. And so this was like the job board version of that. We work remotely.com, another great one. And. The Hacker News on the first of every single month, there is a who's hiring post, and you'll just see like tons of threads of okay, here's my company I'm hiring. It's, you know, we're remote friendly or we're not remote friendly and this is what we're looking for. But also the Y Combinator. Y Combinator has their own job board for any of the YC companies. So if you go to y combinator.com/jobs, there is listings for all of the different YC companies that are hiring. This is definitely one of the places I would go because when you're looking to get a job at a small startup It can be really fun. You can learn a ton, you can wear lots of different hats. You can, you know, enjoy the scrappiness of a small team. And one of the things that you wanna make sure of though is that your company is somewhat vetted, like the startup is somewhat vetted and why Combinator is, you know, a well respected incubator. And so they're gonna do some of that vetting for you. I've also used. seeddb.com, which is basically just like a giant database of all the companies that have had funding. And so you can it's not just Y Combinator, but also Techstars and all the different startups. So you can go down all the accelerators and look at all the companies that they've invested in, maybe can sort by like when they were founded and how much funding they have, and then check out their job boards. So that's like another great way to just go and find like tons and tons of companies to apply.

Colin: Absolutely. Yeah, we didn't talk about it much, but I would say this falls under the doing the research of the company, right? Because even on the who's hiring Hacker News, you'll sometimes find these companies that are one person, sometimes an I, you know, a business person who wants to hire for equity with a little bit of money on the side, and it's like really depends on where you're at in your stage of life and how much of a gamble you want to take. But having. Companies that have just come out of YC or have just raised around, it means that some other people have said, yes, there's some sort of traction, something's going on here that, signals that it's, this is, maybe a place you can go hang your hat for a while especially in the early days, you might actually be one of those founding engineers on a team that turns into the future stripe. Things like that. So it really depend. Where you're at in your career also might depend on your kind of personality. Do you wanna be in a startup? Do you wanna be at a Microsoft GitHub? Whatever that looks like. So yeah, hopefully those will help you out in, if you're looking to get hired. Some tips, some tricks, some places to, to get started.

CJ: Totally. Yeah. And I think also, like if you are having a hard time getting through to that first phone screen. I'd be down to look at your resume and your like, website and social profile and stuff. Yeah, feel free to hit us up on Twitter.

Colin: Absolutely happy to do it the same. So thanks for listening this week. Next week we're gonna be talking about the other side of the table and what it looks like to hire people. So maybe you're a developer that's been doing some of the interviews and some of the hiring. We'll talk about that a little bit. And as always, you can head over to build and learn.dev to check out all of our links so you can reach out if you want us to review anything. Maybe one day we'll get like a Discord community together or something so that we can have yet another place people can hang out and get jobs and things. But yeah.

CJ: All right. That's all for this episode, folks. Thanks again. We'll see you next time.

Colin: See ya.