Everything Old Is New Again & Niching Down
Show Notes
It's the One Year Anniversary of Build & Learn!
In this episode we chat about refreshing OAuth tokens and building CRM features with SMS/voice APIs. CJ and Colin also talk about the tradeoffs of building "calm", bootstrapped companies versus venture-backed startups. It seems like everything that is old is new again! What startups from the 2009-2012 vintages do you think could do with some disruption today?
Some resources mentioned:
In this episode we chat about refreshing OAuth tokens and building CRM features with SMS/voice APIs. CJ and Colin also talk about the tradeoffs of building "calm", bootstrapped companies versus venture-backed startups. It seems like everything that is old is new again! What startups from the 2009-2012 vintages do you think could do with some disruption today?
Some resources mentioned:
Follow along off-pod!
- @colinloretz on Twitter
- @cjav_dev on Twitter
Full Transcripts
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<span>Deezer</span>
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<ul>
<li><time>August 30, 2023</time></li>
<li>by CJ Avilla, Colin Loretz</li>
<li><a target="_new" href="https://buildandlearn.dev">Visit Website</a></li>
</ul>
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<section class="episode-description">
<div>It's the One Year Anniversary of Build & Learn! <br><br>In this episode we chat about refreshing OAuth tokens and building CRM features with SMS/voice APIs. CJ and Colin also talk about the tradeoffs of building "calm", bootstrapped companies versus venture-backed startups. It seems like everything that is old is new again! What startups from the 2009-2012 vintages do you think could do with some disruption today?<br><br>Resources:<br>- <a href="https://gorails.com">GoRails</a><br>- <a href="https://www.twilio.com/en-us/flex">Twilio Flex</a></div>
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<div class="person-name">CJ Avilla</div>
<div class="person-bio">Developer Advocate @StripeDev. Veteran. 📽 https://t.co/2UI0oEAnFK. Building with Ruby, Rails, JavaScript</div>
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<div class="person-name">Colin Loretz</div>
<div class="person-bio">I like to build software and communities. Building software at @orbitmodel 🪐 Coworking at @renocollective 🎙Sharing software learnings on @buildandlearn_</div>
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<section class="show-description">
<h4>What is Build and Learn?</h4>
<p>A podcast about software development and developing ourselves as software engineers. Hosted by CJ Avilla and Colin Loretz.</p>
</section>
</div>
<section class="episode-description" x-show="transcript">
<p>Colin: Welcome to Build and Learn.</p>
<p>My name is Colin.</p>
<p>CJ: I'm cj and hey, we've
<br />officially survived past that</p>
<p>one year point for a podcast.</p>
<p>We made it.</p>
<p>Most podcasts don't make it one year,
<br />and that's because of the podcast fade.</p>
<p>The pod fade.</p>
<p>Colin: I think, that this is one
<br />of those like consistency things.</p>
<p>This is the going to the gym, any habit.</p>
<p>I have a newsletter, I have a blog.</p>
<p>I don't keep them up to date as
<br />much, but I like that we put this</p>
<p>on the calendar and we get to chat.</p>
<p>So especially now that we're not
<br />in the same place anymore and it's</p>
<p>still still something I wanna do.</p>
<p>So I'm excited to hit that.</p>
<p>And, and Transistor has this little fun
<br />badge system that I think it's nice to</p>
<p>just, when you log in to edit an episode.</p>
<p>I just saw it was a year, I don't
<br />think I would've noticed otherwise.</p>
<p>So kudos to the team over there.</p>
<p>Just a little fun, fun, surprise and
<br />delight in the transistor product.</p>
<p>CJ: Yeah, They've got like quite a few
<br />little gamification things built in</p>
<p>that are pretty neat for podcasters.</p>
<p>So there's like lots of little badges
<br />and things you can earn throughout.</p>
<p>So it's pretty neat.</p>
<p>What are you working on this week, Colin?</p>
<p>Colin: I am still a
<br />little bit in calendar.</p>
<p>Hell it's been fun.</p>
<p>If you listen to the last, I think
<br />actually two episodes I've been</p>
<p>talking about Google Calendar, APIs and
<br />CloudFlare Workers and things like that.</p>
<p>So still working on my
<br />Google Calendar bot.</p>
<p>It's been fun.</p>
<p>I've learned a lot about CloudFlare.</p>
<p>Like I, I had to like, kind of like when
<br />you're working with Lambdas You make like</p>
<p>different functions for different things.</p>
<p>And I thought I had to
<br />do that in CloudFlare.</p>
<p>And so I had like six CloudFlare
<br />workers and turns out you can just</p>
<p>put them all in one CloudFlare worker.</p>
<p>So that was the, the big
<br />takeaway for this week.</p>
<p>A lot easier to deploy and manage like
<br />the same resources and stuff, so they</p>
<p>all have access to the same database and
<br />key value store and all that stuff to do.</p>
<p>All the different crons that I have to do.</p>
<p>If you've never worked with the API
<br />before, like you can subscribe to a</p>
<p>calendar's notifications, like new
<br />event, edit event, delete event,</p>
<p>canceled events, but it expires after
<br />30 days, and so you have to renew the</p>
<p>subscription on top of also catching
<br />the events and dealing with those.</p>
<p>So I, I had set it up as like a
<br />subscription renewal worker and</p>
<p>then a subscription like events.</p>
<p>Like kind of route to catch
<br />those web hooks and things.</p>
<p>So yeah, just been playing around
<br />with that, getting that going.</p>
<p>It's quite satisfying to get my
<br />first, like you have an upcoming event</p>
<p>message where it wasn't just telling
<br />me what I had for the day, but it</p>
<p>was telling me like right before the
<br />event that I had a meeting to get to.</p>
<p>So that was kind of cool.</p>
<p>CJ: That's awesome.</p>
<p>So for the subscription renewal
<br />bit can you, is it like you get</p>
<p>a refresh token and then you just
<br />use the refresh token to get like</p>
<p>a new access key or something, or?</p>
<p>Okay, got it.</p>
<p>Colin: Yeah, and, and Google Auth doesn't
<br />last very long anyway, so I had to</p>
<p>build, refresh into the whole system.</p>
<p>So I kind of made like a function
<br />that gets their access token and</p>
<p>if it's expired, Renews it so
<br />you always have a fresh token.</p>
<p>But I also don't wanna refresh
<br />all the time just because you</p>
<p>might be making multiple calls.</p>
<p>So I usually, I, I do a try catch and
<br />if it fails, For token, like in like</p>
<p>Grant invalid, then I do a refresh.</p>
<p>And this is one of those things that I
<br />feel like I have to write over and over</p>
<p>and over again and like, I think like
<br />Stripe and others u like have that built</p>
<p>into the SDKs and stuff these days.</p>
<p>But I usually don't use SDKs and do a lot
<br />of bear rest client stuff, so, or fetch.</p>
<p>CJ: Yeah, I like that pattern.</p>
<p>I know like a, I mean, for a lot of OAuth
<br />APIs, They'll give you a refresh token.</p>
<p>I mean, some of 'em don't
<br />do the refresh thing.</p>
<p>They're just like, here's an access
<br />token that's available forever.</p>
<p>Or like, if it gets revoked, then you just
<br />like have to go through the flow again.</p>
<p>And yeah, I think when you're, when
<br />I was starting out, I definitely</p>
<p>took the route of like, oh, I'm just
<br />gonna refresh these every night.</p>
<p>Like, I'm just gonna run cron
<br />that goes through and re gives</p>
<p>me new tokens every night.</p>
<p>But yeah, I definitely find that it
<br />can be, A little bit smoother to sort</p>
<p>of like lazily refresh, like you said.</p>
<p>Just like wait till you
<br />actually need to use it.</p>
<p>Try to use it.</p>
<p>If it doesn't work, try to refresh it.</p>
<p>Use the refreshed one.</p>
<p>If that doesn't work, then you
<br />like handle your errors gracefully.</p>
<p>But</p>
<p>Colin: It actually, I think it, it helps
<br />clean up the code a little bit too.</p>
<p>It makes it more reusable 'cause
<br />you're gonna be calling it again</p>
<p>after you refresh, you're gonna
<br />make the same call you made before.</p>
<p>So like when I'm prototyping, I don't
<br />necessarily design it that way, and</p>
<p>then it makes me like modularize
<br />the code a little bit and try</p>
<p>catch, and then call itself again.</p>
<p>And I think Google's, they only last a
<br />few hours, so you would want, you wouldn't</p>
<p>wanna like, refresh every few hours if
<br />you're not doing anything with that data.</p>
<p>But yeah, that's, that's kind of
<br />been in OAuth land and lots and lots</p>
<p>and lots of practice makes perfect.</p>
<p>I guess.</p>
<p>CJ: Yep, totally.</p>
<p>Colin: What are you working on?</p>
<p>CJ: Well, a bunch of stuff, but let's see.</p>
<p>So similar sort of AAU thing.</p>
<p>We were, we're building a tool to ingest
<br />a bunch of messages from this like</p>
<p>chat client that we use called Podium.</p>
<p>So we have like a web chat interface
<br />where people can come to the website</p>
<p>and text us and say, Hey, I want
<br />certain rooms painted or walls painted.</p>
<p>And this company podium has an a p I.</p>
<p>For pulling out conversations.</p>
<p>They do not have an a p i for listing
<br />messages related to a conversation.</p>
<p>So you like have to know the
<br />idea of the specific message.</p>
<p>So it was kind of a, it's been a
<br />little bit of a research project</p>
<p>this week to set up OAuth.</p>
<p>And then, you know, try hitting
<br />the a p i to see what we can get.</p>
<p>And then ultimately we had to like submit
<br />a support request to ask for the messages</p>
<p>to be exported, which is fine for our
<br />use case 'cause we want to, right now</p>
<p>we're like working on building out some
<br />data science-y things for a little bot.</p>
<p>But yeah, in the future it would
<br />be awesome to be able to just</p>
<p>like list those messages out.</p>
<p>Also working on building out and improving
<br />like the UX for a bunch of pages in our.</p>
<p>Our like operations tool.</p>
<p>And this week I was adding some tab
<br />views for like the project view.</p>
<p>So if you're like in the sales team,
<br />you look at the sales tab and it gives</p>
<p>you everything you need to know about
<br />the status, the sales status, and</p>
<p>where the person is in the pipeline
<br />and what the opportunity size is.</p>
<p>And the partners are working
<br />with their communication</p>
<p>preferences and things like that.</p>
<p>And then if you're on the operations
<br />side or if you're on the paint</p>
<p>crew, you see different views.</p>
<p>And I was, I was like remembering
<br />back to the bootstrap days where you</p>
<p>could just sort of like drop in some
<br />bootstrap tabs, add some, a little bit</p>
<p>of JavaScript and you were good to go.</p>
<p>And yeah, I mean there's, when you're
<br />working in the front end with something</p>
<p>like React, there's often like, you
<br />know, some library you can just drop in.</p>
<p>And when you're using Tailwind, it can be
<br />really nice to just use the Tailwind ui.</p>
<p>Things that come with React or view.</p>
<p>And so that's what I was sort of
<br />reaching for, but it doesn't fit</p>
<p>nicely in the Rails ecosystem by
<br />default, if you're using sort of</p>
<p>just like the vanilla H T M L E R B.</p>
<p>And so I found Chris Oliver built
<br />a tailwind stimulus wrapper that</p>
<p>has like a bunch of the components.</p>
<p>So tabs was in there and was
<br />able to drop that in and use it.</p>
<p>Effectively, and so that, that like
<br />worked out really, really well.</p>
<p>yeah,</p>
<p>Colin: I would not have thought
<br />that would've been an issue, but</p>
<p>I can see how that would come up.</p>
<p>CJ: right.</p>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p>It's like I don't know.</p>
<p>I mean, tabs, you could pretty
<br />simply build your own stimulus</p>
<p>controller to just say like, I.</p>
<p>Listen for clicks on these allies
<br />and when that happens, remove the</p>
<p>hidden class from the panel that
<br />you want to display or whatever.</p>
<p>So I think implementing tabs is
<br />a pretty fun little like entry</p>
<p>front end JavaScript problem to do.</p>
<p>But when you're moving, I don't
<br />know when, when I'm trying to be as</p>
<p>productive as possible, I'm like,
<br />I don't wanna reinvent this like</p>
<p>Colin: No, especially with Tailwind,
<br />like gives it to you and then</p>
<p>you're like, I'm using Rails.</p>
<p>I shouldn't be punished for this.</p>
<p>CJ: Yeah.</p>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p>So I</p>
<p>Colin: another shout out for Chris.</p>
<p>CJ: Yes, exactly.</p>
<p>I, like, I am using so much of his stuff.</p>
<p>It's crazy.</p>
<p>Like the, our, our stack is
<br />like, at least half of it is</p>
<p>written by Chris, which I yeah.</p>
<p>Hugely, hugely appreciate.</p>
<p>If you if you haven't already and
<br />you're a rails dev, go subscribe to</p>
<p>Go Rails, just to like help Chris out.</p>
<p>Colin: Totally.</p>
<p>CJ: Yeah.</p>
<p>But it's fun.</p>
<p>I don't know.</p>
<p>It's like using stimulus.</p>
<p>I, I've really started to
<br />like, enjoy using stimulus for</p>
<p>a bunch of different things.</p>
<p>Just even if it's as simple as
<br />just showing and hiding forms or</p>
<p>you know, little tiny interactions
<br />that you need on a page.</p>
<p>So popping modals or whatever, stimulus
<br />is just so nice to just sprinkle in</p>
<p>a tiny bit of JavaScript where you
<br />need it, and then the rest is, You</p>
<p>know, basically just server rendered
<br />H T M L, which is is very nice, so.</p>
<p>Colin: Yeah.</p>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p>I actually haven't been touching Rails
<br />front ends since Stimulus really was</p>
<p>a thing like I've mostly been doing.</p>
<p>When I was doing Rails, it
<br />was mostly backend stuff.</p>
<p>More APIs and a more OAuth
<br />fund and stuff like that.</p>
<p>So I, that's an area that's
<br />like a blind spot for me.</p>
<p>So I, I have seen a stimulus controller
<br />and I was like, what is this thing?</p>
<p>If you're coming from like a JavaScript
<br />or like, it's, it's very interesting.</p>
<p>But I could see how you need to like have
<br />that glue between tailwind components</p>
<p>and what Rails is doing under the hood.</p>
<p>CJ: When you were at at orbit, what
<br />was the front end for the Orbit app?</p>
<p>Colin: We definitely had, it
<br />was a, it was a lot of stimulus,</p>
<p>like in our our filter view, like
<br />that was all stimulus, I believe.</p>
<p>So you could like add your filters for
<br />like which member you're looking for.</p>
<p>We had React components, but I
<br />don't know when and where the,</p>
<p>that's where like it gets fuzzy.</p>
<p>Like we have React components, but
<br />how, how you interact with them from</p>
<p>the app I think was using stimulus
<br />as, as the glue between this, if that</p>
<p>CJ: Okay.</p>
<p>That's cool.</p>
<p>Interesting.</p>
<p>Yeah, we, we do like our marketing site is
<br />all built in next jss and we've been sort</p>
<p>of exploring how do we bring some stuff.</p>
<p>Like some React stuff and then just
<br />sprinkle that around the app the</p>
<p>same way that we are with Stimulus.</p>
<p>But I, I haven't gotten
<br />like too deep into that yet.</p>
<p>So that'll</p>
<p>Colin: Well, I, I bet tabs are easier
<br />on the next JSS website, right?</p>
<p>CJ: probably.</p>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p>You just like drop in</p>
<p>Colin: just JavaScript.</p>
<p>CJ: Yeah, some actually, you could
<br />probably just copy and paste the examples</p>
<p>directly from Tailwind UI or Headless
<br />UI or whatever, and it should just work.</p>
<p>But Things like combo boxes.</p>
<p>We have like a dropdown list where you can
<br />add a specific paint color to a project.</p>
<p>And in the combo box I wanted to show
<br />like a little palette that has the</p>
<p>hex, like a little circle that is
<br />the hex color for the paint color.</p>
<p>Then the name of the color, the
<br />brand, and like its little code, so</p>
<p>like the Sherwin Williams code or
<br />the Benjamin Moore code or whatever,</p>
<p>and building a like really rich.</p>
<p>Each of the options really rich into
<br />just like a select or dropdown box</p>
<p>was made so much easier with with
<br />these little tailwind components.</p>
<p>I'd say, I dunno if you're using
<br />rail stuff, go check out Chris's</p>
<p>tailwind stimulus wrapper.</p>
<p>We've also got sort of a
<br />research project going on.</p>
<p>We have I know I mentioned this
<br />like podium tool that is where we</p>
<p>have our chat widget, but eventually
<br />we'd love to sort of centralize all</p>
<p>of our communication, so we have.</p>
<p>Phone calls, web chat, text message,
<br />and then even other like social</p>
<p>channels, all of that coming into
<br />one source where we can like view</p>
<p>all the past conversation history.</p>
<p>And so I've been digging into Twilio
<br />Flex, which is kind of like, It's</p>
<p>almost like the support agent interface
<br />that lets you say like as an agent.</p>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p>Right now I'm available and I'm online and
<br />I can handle conversations or whatever,</p>
<p>and then it will ring your phone or
<br />it will, you'll get the web chat or</p>
<p>you'll get the text message and you can
<br />kind of like handle each conversation.</p>
<p>And right now, The whole entire UI
<br />is basically just dropped in as an an</p>
<p>iframe and like into our application.</p>
<p>And so over the next couple weeks
<br />something that I want to play with a lot</p>
<p>is like using the Twilio APIs to create
<br />contacts and create conversations and</p>
<p>start to like build mappings between like
<br />what's in Twilio and what's in our system.</p>
<p>Just to see if Twilio's the right answer.</p>
<p>I don't actually know if that's the
<br />way we're gonna go, but yeah, like</p>
<p>Twilio, Intercom, any other sort of like
<br />multi-channel communication platform?</p>
<p>Curious if you've had, do
<br />you have opinions or thoughts</p>
<p>about things we should avoid?</p>
<p>Things we should try?</p>
<p>Is this anything you've
<br />touched before in the past?</p>
<p>Colin: Oh yeah.</p>
<p>I've done a bunch of call center stuff.</p>
<p>I would say avoid Salesforce.</p>
<p>Yeah,</p>
<p>CJ: That's right.</p>
<p>I.</p>
<p>Colin: Sorry.</p>
<p>Salesforce.</p>
<p>But you know, they have a lot of this
<br />stuff built in, but like Twilio feels</p>
<p>like a strong direction because you get
<br />Ss M Ss, you get phone calls, you get</p>
<p>the ability to do reminders and voice
<br />reminders that are automated and all</p>
<p>that stuff, which is really powerful.</p>
<p>If you have multiple agents around the
<br />world eventually, right, like people</p>
<p>answering calls or texting or whatever,
<br />then it's whatever one is enabled.</p>
<p>Like a lot of the tools out there promise
<br />that stuff, but it's like it's promised</p>
<p>that you can go get a consultant to then
<br />implement it, not out of the box, right?</p>
<p>And whereas you guys are already using
<br />the bare metal Twilio stuff, so like you</p>
<p>might as well just extend off of that.</p>
<p>I don't, does Intercom do
<br />text and voice stuff these</p>
<p>CJ: I am not sure I, so I've only looked,
<br />yeah, the, I've only really looked into</p>
<p>Twilio so far and we're kind of still
<br />early in, in the research phase, but I.</p>
<p>It's my understanding that
<br />Intercom has fewer channels.</p>
<p>But yeah, like I, I kind of also expected
<br />that Twilio Flex would have a bit more.</p>
<p>In terms of helping you connect
<br />to your own c R m or like your own</p>
<p>sort of like customer database.</p>
<p>It really just has support
<br />for a couple outta the box.</p>
<p>I think it's Zendesk and maybe Salesforce,
<br />where like those partners of Twilio have</p>
<p>built integrations into Twilio Flex.</p>
<p>And it seems like if you want your C
<br />R M built into this, then you kinda</p>
<p>like have to invent, reinvent all
<br />of the a p I connections, which.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, they're
<br />giving you an interface which</p>
<p>is much better than nothing, and
<br />just having the raw APIs, but,</p>
<p>Colin: Yeah, I mean, this is the tricky
<br />classic build versus buy thing, right?</p>
<p>It's like how close to the
<br />bare metal do you go when what?</p>
<p>What's your competitive advantage?</p>
<p>Right?</p>
<p>And we talked about this in last few
<br />episodes in the past, but the tricky</p>
<p>thing with that is like if you were to,
<br />let's just say you, you, it sounds like</p>
<p>you guys are building a C R M in a way.</p>
<p>have infinite flexibility there versus
<br />if you go use a Salesforce, you will</p>
<p>constantly be running up against what
<br />you're not allowed to do what you can do.</p>
<p>Oh, we have to pay more
<br />to have access to that.</p>
<p>Oh, that seat doesn't
<br />come with this thing.</p>
<p>It's just, and like, Salesforce
<br />is not the new thing.</p>
<p>The whole what's old is new again around
<br />designing like new startups around</p>
<p>old concepts like Paul Jarvis has his
<br />analytics tool, which is very similar</p>
<p>to the analytics tool called Mint.</p>
<p>That was like, 2005, 2006
<br />or something like that.</p>
<p>And it was just better, simpler
<br />analytics than Google Analytics.</p>
<p>And Salesforce was the simpler
<br />c r m against all these huge,</p>
<p>you know kind of incumbents.</p>
<p>Salesforce needs to be disrupted, like
<br />most of the CRMs that I see today.</p>
<p>Either live long enough to become
<br />the villain and they become the</p>
<p>big sales force that they are.</p>
<p>Same for Intercom.</p>
<p>Like I think Intercom will probably
<br />get, you know, there'll be a new</p>
<p>startup-y version of Intercom that is
<br />simpler, cheaper, and they all end up</p>
<p>going upstream to enterprise because
<br />they took so much funding and that</p>
<p>they have to Which is why I'm kind
<br />of excited to see like the calm fund</p>
<p>and tiny seed and stuff like that.</p>
<p>Is that Salesforce would be a pain.</p>
<p>So I would avoid that road.</p>
<p>That's the long way of saying that,
<br />I guess, but, you know, there's</p>
<p>things you could learn from that.</p>
<p>I, I think you guys are on the right
<br />path with Twilio and I'd be interesting</p>
<p>to see what you guys do with it.</p>
<p>CJ: Cool.</p>
<p>Yeah, it is.</p>
<p>We are building some C R M features.</p>
<p>But at the end of the day, we're kind
<br />of just, the goal for this project is</p>
<p>to centralize communication so that
<br />we have a full and complete history</p>
<p>and I mean, there's a bunch of gaps
<br />and issues with our current setup.</p>
<p>Like we're using Google Voice for some.</p>
<p>Text message flows and like if
<br />anyone reads the text message,</p>
<p>then it shows as red and no one
<br />else will know that it was red.</p>
<p>Unless we're all being like
<br />super vocal about like, Hey, I</p>
<p>read the text from so and so, it
<br />meant it said this, or whatever.</p>
<p>So there's yeah, there's definitely gaps.</p>
<p>But lots of opportunity
<br />for us to centralize.</p>
<p>Colin: I like that.</p>
<p>So it's more a shared inbox,
<br />multimodal instead of c r m, right?</p>
<p>Like, yes, there's the who, but you're
<br />not, I mean, you mentioned things</p>
<p>like opportunities and deal flow
<br />and like where they're at and stages</p>
<p>and stuff and, but it's so specific,
<br />like you would spend more time and</p>
<p>money customizing like a real c r
<br />m to do that than just using code.</p>
<p>CJ: Right.</p>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p>We're, we have like the coach built
<br />process for sales already built</p>
<p>for this small set of states that
<br />we are, that we need and expect.</p>
<p>And what's cool is that now we
<br />can build whatever automations</p>
<p>we want to on top of it.</p>
<p>And whether we're using an a p I to
<br />do some third party thing or we're</p>
<p>building it ourselves, we can do that.</p>
<p>So yeah, it kind of, it gives us
<br />the flexibility to integrate or like</p>
<p>solve problems however we want to.</p>
<p>For instance, we don't have
<br />integrations with a third party paint.</p>
<p>Like manufacturer because apparently
<br />it doesn't exist or like yeah.</p>
<p>So there's not like an a p I
<br />to like order paint from like</p>
<p>Sherwin Williams or whatever, or
<br />as far, as far as I understand.</p>
<p>And so instead we communicate
<br />directly to an account manager at</p>
<p>a certain place, be a text message.</p>
<p>And so like early versions of like
<br />order management, just gonna be like</p>
<p>build the text message that's gonna
<br />be sent as like the order for the</p>
<p>thing which is all stuff that we can.</p>
<p>We can do because we have the flexibility
<br />and we're in a position like that,</p>
<p>we can build everything that we need.</p>
<p>So yeah, I dunno.</p>
<p>It's fun, it's exciting,</p>
<p>Colin: yeah, like pulling back
<br />from the specific use case.</p>
<p>Do you, the thing that I wonder, do you
<br />think a startup could build a C R M.</p>
<p>I don't think the goal is to
<br />become as big as Salesforce, like</p>
<p>Salesforce is just insanely large,
<br />but like to unseat Salesforce.</p>
<p>Do you think that that is possible?</p>
<p>CJ: I think, I definitely think so.</p>
<p>And I think the way to do it is to
<br />niche, like niche down and be like, okay,</p>
<p>we're building a C R M for hairstylists
<br />and it's gonna be like super, super</p>
<p>specific to hair and then you end up with
<br />squire or something like that, right?</p>
<p>Like so yeah, I think it's</p>
<p>Colin: The MINDBODY online type</p>
<p>CJ: yes, yes, exactly.</p>
<p>Colin: CrossFit Gym, c r m.</p>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p>CJ: Yep.</p>
<p>Yeah, I think the c r m, like c r m
<br />features are just, those are kind of just</p>
<p>features of a system that's purpose built
<br />for a specific niche, and there's totally</p>
<p>opportunity to go out and crush that.</p>
<p>And I think a lot of people are kind
<br />of expecting, they have like more</p>
<p>expectations about software that they're
<br />gonna buy to run their business, that</p>
<p>it is already integrated with a bunch
<br />of stuff like, They're gonna want stripe</p>
<p>out the box and they're gonna want
<br />customer messaging out the box and they're</p>
<p>gonna want whatever, some, some sort
<br />of reminders in the Slack integration,</p>
<p>discord integration and whatever,</p>
<p>Colin: So like the, the Salesforce
<br />a p i costs money, right?</p>
<p>You have to be on a certain plan to
<br />have access to it, and then if you</p>
<p>want to customize it, you have to use
<br />their like lightning and visual force</p>
<p>and like a subset of Java and like
<br />there's just all these headaches there.</p>
<p>So it would be under, if anyone
<br />has not used Salesforce, like the</p>
<p>admin screen is, Millions of pages.</p>
<p>Like it's, you open these toggles,
<br />probably not millions, it's hyperbole,</p>
<p>but you know, you open a toggle and
<br />then there's like 10 more toggles.</p>
<p>Then you open those toggles and there's
<br />like, you like hunt around for these</p>
<p>things and they, they've added so many
<br />features for every use case that you</p>
<p>have to hire consultants, which is
<br />what one of the jobs I used to have.</p>
<p>Just to implement it and then you're
<br />not necessarily happy that you're</p>
<p>paying a fortune for Salesforce
<br />and then a fortune to someone to</p>
<p>make it do what you want it to do.</p>
<p>So it's the c r m one is one that has
<br />rolled around my head for a really</p>
<p>long time, but it just feels, you know,
<br />it's similar to the past where like</p>
<p>if you don't have a lot of funding,
<br />a lot of companies won't trust it.</p>
<p>Because the funding is a signal that
<br />you're gonna be around in some, some</p>
<p>people's eyes once the funding dries up.</p>
<p>You may not be around if you aren't a
<br />sustainable business, but I think like</p>
<p>37 signals used to have high rise.</p>
<p>But that was like kind of
<br />like a Fisher-Price version</p>
<p>of a C R M in my mind.</p>
<p>Like it worked, but it was
<br />like a glorified calendar book.</p>
<p>It wasn't really like a A C R M.</p>
<p>CJ: I think in terms of like customer
<br />support and sales, like really basic</p>
<p>stuff for startups, there's definitely an
<br />opportunity to do something like, Maybe</p>
<p>not as intense as Salesforce, but maybe
<br />closer to something like Zendesk where</p>
<p>you could build a Zendesk competitor
<br />with some Twilio APIs and Jumpstart</p>
<p>Pro and like a few smart things and a
<br />really nice design and a low, low price.</p>
<p>And I think, you know, early
<br />startups would be like, hell yeah.</p>
<p>Like,</p>
<p>Colin: Yeah, the linear of Zendesk</p>
<p>CJ: Yes, yes, yes, exactly.</p>
<p>That's just like,</p>
<p>Colin: these are free
<br />startup ideas for everybody</p>
<p>CJ: Yeah, exactly.</p>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p>If you're following along at home,
<br />I, you know, so like as I was going</p>
<p>through the the thought process of
<br />Twilio and how I might integrate it and</p>
<p>everything, I was like, oh, you know what?</p>
<p>I think I might record this as a
<br />video because there's enough, like</p>
<p>off the beaten path stuff that I
<br />need to, like, try and experiment</p>
<p>with to see if it'll work.</p>
<p>So if folks are interested in.</p>
<p>Watching a probably a series because it'll
<br />take a while to figure that stuff out.</p>
<p>Like let us know.</p>
<p>Also, going back to the pod fade
<br />concept that we were talking</p>
<p>about earlier, man, it is.</p>
<p>Really, really hard to put
<br />out content consistently.</p>
<p>I know you and I, we took a break.</p>
<p>I haven't put out any videos on my
<br />own channel for like six months.</p>
<p>I know that my former team at
<br />Stripe is like slowly sort of</p>
<p>they don't foresee a ton more
<br />content coming out on that channel.</p>
<p>So there is just, it
<br />is, it is really hard.</p>
<p>I was talking to Aaron Koble from.</p>
<p>Webflow earlier today.</p>
<p>He's also like slowed down on
<br />content for his own channel.</p>
<p>I think a lot of people are just finding
<br />it really, really hard and The point</p>
<p>that you made about falling to the level
<br />of your systems, I thought was kind of</p>
<p>interesting, especially because when,
<br />when I think about my blog and my like</p>
<p>YouTube channel and your newsletter and
<br />your blog and things like that, right?</p>
<p>Like those were only held
<br />accountable to ourselves, right?</p>
<p>At least with this podcast, you and I are
<br />both sort of accountable to each other</p>
<p>that like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna show
<br />up today even if I don't want to do it</p>
<p>because I wanna hang out with Colin and I
<br />want this to be successful and whatever.</p>
<p>And so there's a little bit more pressure.</p>
<p>And I think this is probably
<br />also it's part of the system,</p>
<p>it's part of accountability.</p>
<p>It's part of part of the reason too that
<br />I think YC invests in companies that have</p>
<p>two or more founders because it really
<br />gives you like other people to lean on</p>
<p>and other people to kind of like hold
<br />you accountable for just showing up.</p>
<p>So,</p>
<p>Colin: It's funny you say that
<br />because I don't, did, did you see</p>
<p>the conversation going around about
<br />whether or not you should have</p>
<p>co-founders or not on Twitter this week?</p>
<p>On Yeah, it was of all people.</p>
<p>It was the product person from
<br />Twitter Esther Crawford, who was</p>
<p>saying that of her Angel investments.</p>
<p>The ones that have gone to Zero the
<br />fastest have been ones with co-founders</p>
<p>where they have a co-founder dispute.</p>
<p>And I will say like, yes, those are real.</p>
<p>Like you, when you're starting a company
<br />with someone, like you should not take</p>
<p>that lightly, especially if you take.</p>
<p>Investment, right?</p>
<p>Because you are now not just accountable
<br />to your co-founder who is in weird way,</p>
<p>you're gonna spend more time with them
<br />than your actual partner in some cases.</p>
<p>You also are now beholden to your
<br />stakeholders and then eventually,</p>
<p>hopefully your customers.</p>
<p>There's just so much involved there.</p>
<p>And so I know YC really likes to
<br />have founders who are like first</p>
<p>time outta school, three people who
<br />went to the same school together, but</p>
<p>like they really haven't seen life.</p>
<p>You know, enough of life experience
<br />to to do it well and you know, usually</p>
<p>you see, I think like even with Uber
<br />and Travis Kanick and some of these</p>
<p>others, like it, it was not, Uber
<br />was not his first rodeo by any means.</p>
<p>There were a lot of missteps along the
<br />way and I think they had their share</p>
<p>of founder, you know, drama as well.</p>
<p>So it's always interesting to see that.</p>
<p>Thing of like doing a startup by yourself.</p>
<p>There's just a lot to do.</p>
<p>So like I don't necessarily recommend
<br />that, and there's, I think YC and</p>
<p>Techstars both are like, well, if you
<br />can't convince someone else to come</p>
<p>along with you as a co-founder, then
<br />why do you think we should invest that?</p>
<p>That kind of argument is also interesting.</p>
<p>But there's something to be said about
<br />just being able to build slow and</p>
<p>calm and by yourself and work on it.</p>
<p>But then, like what you just
<br />mentioned, like you're now</p>
<p>only accountable to yourself.</p>
<p>No one knows if you are showing up
<br />today to work on it or not versus having</p>
<p>that, that partner to do that with.</p>
<p>CJ: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>Are you, so do you, do you have
<br />any updates about your Door app?</p>
<p>We had talked about like you're
<br />gonna take a couple days off</p>
<p>to work on the Reno Collective</p>
<p>Colin: yeah, so I guess this episode's
<br />going to another place that we</p>
<p>didn't expect, but it, it works.</p>
<p>It's good.</p>
<p>'cause this is like the build
<br />versus buy thing, but it's also, I.</p>
<p>An issue with a startup that raised
<br />money and has to go upstream.</p>
<p>So we've been using this tool called
<br />Robin to run our conference rooms at</p>
<p>the collective so that the coworking
<br />space for, for those of you who are new</p>
<p>to this and it worked really great, but
<br />it was getting more and more expensive</p>
<p>and they have to go upstream because
<br />conference room booking as a business</p>
<p>onto itself, when you've taken a bunch
<br />of money and you've gotten really</p>
<p>big and you have a lot of employees,
<br />Is not a full business, right?</p>
<p>People wanna rent desks.</p>
<p>And so the app now touts some really cool
<br />customers that are huge compared to this</p>
<p>measly little coworking space that we are.</p>
<p>And so I don't fault
<br />them for going upstream.</p>
<p>They have to, they're seeing
<br />a lot that they can do.</p>
<p>Around like health, wellness check-ins.</p>
<p>Like when you wanna book a desk and
<br />come into your company, like a Google</p>
<p>or whoever, they want to say like,
<br />okay, you know, everything from your</p>
<p>badging system at Stripe and Discord or
<br />wherever to physical digital security.</p>
<p>Are you gonna have a desk
<br />and a coworking space?</p>
<p>Like a lot of companies have
<br />reinvented their HQs as like glorified</p>
<p>co-working spaces, and so they
<br />built all their tooling around that.</p>
<p>And so like the app for us just doesn't.</p>
<p>It's expensive.</p>
<p>It doesn't make sense for us anymore.</p>
<p>Our members are finding it confusing
<br />'cause they're like, oh, I log in</p>
<p>and it's asking me to book a desk.</p>
<p>I'm like, yeah, don't use that tab.</p>
<p>Go to the other tab.</p>
<p>And we just don't have any control
<br />over the app and the experience.</p>
<p>I've been holding off on just building
<br />my own for a really long time.</p>
<p>But I've also been playing
<br />around with calendar APIs.</p>
<p>So I am, I'm playing around with it.</p>
<p>My first prototype is a React app
<br />that just checks whether or not each</p>
<p>calendar is free or busy right now.</p>
<p>So it'll basically be red or green
<br />depending on if the room is booked.</p>
<p>So that part, surprisingly, will
<br />be like, the easier part, the</p>
<p>harder part is letting people book,</p>
<p>Having the UI to do the booking
<br />and, and all of that stuff.</p>
<p>I think we'll start with just building
<br />it for ourselves with no expectation,</p>
<p>but maybe it'll become a conference room
<br />booking app that's just run by one person.</p>
<p>We'll see.</p>
<p>CJ: Is the Google calendar, a p i?</p>
<p>You can, I assume you can
<br />create events through it.</p>
<p>And even if you're not authenticated
<br />as the, could probably auth like auth</p>
<p>as like, we are the coworking space.</p>
<p>And then just use that auth
<br />token to create the room or</p>
<p>like book the room or whatever.</p>
<p>Colin: Yeah, and you can do things
<br />like with service accounts and</p>
<p>stuff you can actually impersonate.</p>
<p>So there's like all sorts of OAuth
<br />magic you can do with Google.</p>
<p>But the other way to think of it
<br />is that like an M V P would be</p>
<p>having a Calendly to book the rooms.</p>
<p>It requires us to like
<br />create each room as a person.</p>
<p>CJ: Very cool.</p>
<p>Thanks for the update, and
<br />it sounds like a fun project.</p>
<p>I know, like the further I get into my
<br />career, I'm getting a little bit better</p>
<p>at not just like building stuff that I'm
<br />like, oh yeah, that'll be easy to do.</p>
<p>Let me just build some little
<br />web scraper that goes and gets</p>
<p>the data I need for this thing.</p>
<p>It's like, okay, yeah, that that'll work
<br />for a minute, and then like it'll explode.</p>
<p>So yeah, it's, it's, I'm, I'm, I'm
<br />definitely struggling finding a</p>
<p>balance between saying like, no, you
<br />shouldn't build the thing because.</p>
<p>There's existing solutions out there and
<br />the tam isn't big enough and whatever.</p>
<p>And then also just, you
<br />should just build it.</p>
<p>'cause it'd be fun and
<br />it'd be like interesting.</p>
<p>And if it happens to work, great.</p>
<p>If it doesn't work, then whatever.</p>
<p>Like try some other solution.</p>
<p>But yeah, I don't know.</p>
<p>Maybe that's what this like Twilio Flex
<br />plus Jumpstart thing will end up being.</p>
<p>Colin: I think we've talked about
<br />this in the past with build versus</p>
<p>Buy, but like in a way, rails.</p>
<p>Is like a hybrid of the two.</p>
<p>Like you're not building
<br />everything from scratch.</p>
<p>Like Jumpstart gives you so much out
<br />of the box rails is giving you so</p>
<p>much power, and then flex, you know,
<br />literally flexing over here on Twilio.</p>
<p>So like, it's it's good you got,
<br />I think it's a happy medium.</p>
<p>You may go down that path a
<br />little bit and find that it,</p>
<p>it's too deep of a rabbit hole.</p>
<p>And I think like, keeping in
<br />mind like, is this you know,</p>
<p>a unique value prop for us or.</p>
<p>Is it not?</p>
<p>Because I've been at a company where
<br />we were gonna spend like six weeks</p>
<p>on a billing system and it's like, is
<br />us billing our customer unique to us?</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>Why should we be spending
<br />six weeks doing that?</p>
<p>CJ: right.</p>
<p>Colin: billing is broken in the industry
<br />of getting your house painted, then sure,</p>
<p>but I suspect that's not the problem.</p>
<p>Right.</p>
<p>It's probably getting your house
<br />painted is the bigger problem.</p>
<p>CJ: Yeah, that is great.</p>
<p>I, you know what, when, when I'm
<br />in it too, it's so hard to, to.</p>
<p>Keep that high level view of like, what is
<br />the most important thing for the business?</p>
<p>And I'm sure everyone who's working on
<br />a startup does this and they're just</p>
<p>like, gosh, I want these tabs to work.</p>
<p>It's like, okay, if these tabs
<br />aren't working, if instead you just</p>
<p>throw everything on the page, is
<br />that gonna be good enough for now?</p>
<p>And then, you know, try to prioritize
<br />and focus on the problems that are gonna</p>
<p>really move the needle for the business.</p>
<p>That's tough.</p>
<p>Colin: This gets into like product
<br />management a little bit, which we can</p>
<p>definitely talk about in the future.</p>
<p>But you know, having an appetite,
<br />like, yeah, we want those</p>
<p>tabs, but do we want the tabs?</p>
<p>If it's gonna take us a week
<br />to build them, probably not.</p>
<p>CJ: Right, right, right.</p>
<p>Totally, totally.</p>
<p>I think that's a good spot to leave it.</p>
<p>Thanks for listening to Build and Learn.</p>
<p>As always, you can head over to build and
<br />learn.dev to check out the show notes.</p>
<p>We'll drop links to things
<br />we talked about and yeah.</p>
<p>Thanks for listening.</p>
<p>Colin: Bye friends.</p>
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